Grounding from China!

sima66
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by sima66 »

tony wrote:Agree will check out if I can source larger granules as the Entreq box seems to have larger 'crystals'

Adam what are the special grounding cables used by Entreq. Brief look and I be thinking of using an interconnect?
Like I already mentioned, difference between the cables makes more difference that not having Entreq at all!
Since you already mentioned, I'm not science guy, i'm more like A/B guy and even to me that doesn't make sense, but it is what it is! :)

I started with regular cooper wires and the difference was positive.
Since I had one original Entreq Silver cable comparing the two was a much bigger difference.
Original Entreq is 18 gauge silver solid core in Teflon jacket + cotton sleeve.
I found same silver wire (much cheaper) and I did the comparation. Even that same silver wire could not come up to Entreq cable
Than it must be the cotton what makes that difference?! And yes, finally a couple weeks ago I kind of cotton insulated my silver wire and here it was.....nailed! :)
I never tried one of the remaining possibilities witch is insulating the cooper wire.
I know that silver sounds better and I have a lot now so I don't plan to bother.

There is another step with upgrading the same silver wire, but that will be my next future project. Now still playing with new PC and ripping.
My insulated silver wire sounded like a joke in comparation with that ground cable!!!
Never ends.......:)
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nige2000
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by nige2000 »

Can you post a bunch of pics of the ground/earth wiring to help explain
I assume having ground earth wiring done well has far more impact than having a tellus

Your using pure silver in teflon and cotton as earth/ grounding wire?
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panda2rom
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by panda2rom »

Thank you Tony for trying to explain it to me.
And yeah i saw their website.
I can't say they explain it better than you.
I'm still not getting it :)

Well, at least now i got that it is about Stray ground.
i don't care.
i don't have a ground on my main Hifi system. (laptop on battery, DAC and the amp only have plug with 2 connectors.).
so no stray ground.

-Stray ground do mean your main ground is shitty.
-The benefits of battery don't limit themselves to stray ground (power surge, under surge, micro lost of current, etc...).

I know about problem with electricity, and while stray ground is a known problem it is rarely an issue.
And i don't like when i don't understand :)

I'll try to dig out some article bout electricity.
jkeny
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by jkeny »

nige2000 wrote:Can you post a bunch of pics of the ground/earth wiring to help explain
I assume having ground earth wiring done well has far more impact than having a tellus

Your using pure silver in teflon and cotton as earth/ grounding wire?
I'm assuming that if there's no voltage difference between the signal grounds of interconnected devices then the Tellus will have no effect.

But we recently saw in Tony's how connecting/disconnecting signal grounds can cause issues & although we never tried to measure the voltage potential between the signal grounds, I presume the cause of the issues that we had was momentary current spike on these signal grounds.

My sense of this is that each device connects signal & earth together at some point - the best point being at the PS ground but when you connect together two device that have this grounding configuration, you end up with more complex mix of interconnected ground circuits & increase the possibilities for ground currents circulating between signal grounds.

Ground issues become especially tricky when higher speed signals (Mhz, GHz) are being dealt with so when PC's are part of the chain it's not surprising to see ground issues

I think Naim tried to address these issues with their own equipment which seems to pat dividends but when non-Naim devices are connected, ground issues can easily arise.

Edit: @Panda - I think the problem is the use of the word "ground" - it misdirects - consider it the return pathway for all electrical paths be they data signals or power supply, all circuits have a return current. It gets complicated though - as an example when the signal speed gets faster the ground return on a solid ground plane is not the full ground plane, the return current follows the original pathway of the signal pcb trace on the top layer of the PCB (assuming a two layer pcb). So the return current is densest along a pathway that mirrors the signal pcb trace on the top & spreads out from that line. So if you were to put a probe on this ground plane it would have a higher current along this mirrored pathway & gradually less current as you move off this mirrored trace. As you can see this is different from the view that is common, which is that ground is 0V everywhere that you measure it.

I hope I'm explaining this properly?

BTW, I'm not saying I know how the Tellus works, I'm just saying that ground is not a simple concept & inter-device ground complicates matters. If everywhere you saw the word "ground" you substituted "return current" & then looked into the rules that defined return currents at low Vs high speeds, it would become clearer just how unclear it all is :)
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by panda2rom »

Thank you Jkenny.
This is all very confusing. I sort of understand you say i'm confusing the yellow/green and blue wire.
But i can only think the confusion is part of the plan :)

i went back to Entreq Website.

"All of these make the current messy. Not least computers with their switched power units, chargers for e.g., mobile telephones, all the halogen and LED lighting, dimmers etc. all cause a great deal of high-frequency noise and stay voltages".

This is true. i have a serious paper on that i need to find.

"And since this can be everything from 50-60 Hz to very high-frequency, but weak, currents, it is not always certain that the path of least resistance is via the protective earth. These currents instead can find dishwashers, laundry machines, counter tops with water pipes, your HiFi rack and your stereo set with all the cables and devices as more attractive paths to the earth. Moreover, these stay voltages often generate very large magnetic fields that absolutely have influence on the sound reproduction".

Now we are talking about the stray curent via the ground / green wire.
I mean, their woodbox look like a portable ground !
So for that part i stand on my points : fix your ground first.

"Our ground boxes / Eartha cables are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth in concentrated form and offer the simplest and fastest route for this high-frequency noise to reach a earth point"

Well they said it too, it's a portable ground. bleh.

And for those interested, Jean Hiraga, the French- Jap gourou of Hifi, made a powerpoint on that subject. I finally digged it :
and you are very lucky it isn"t in french :)

http://www.triodefestival.net/uploads/n ... Hiraga.pdf
nige2000
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by nige2000 »

jkeny wrote:
nige2000 wrote:Can you post a bunch of pics of the ground/earth wiring to help explain
I assume having ground earth wiring done well has far more impact than having a tellus

Your using pure silver in teflon and cotton as earth/ grounding wire?
I'm assuming that if there's no voltage difference between the signal grounds of interconnected devices then the Tellus will have no effect.
i wouldn't bet against it
i think whats doing the harm audibly is signals/currents that cant really be measured in terms of voltage across two points by a multimeter
ive done very little experiments with domestic ac/earth and ground but....
there is sq differences depending on what way gnd/earth is connected/not connected to devices in the audio chain
Adam might elaborate what type of differences he found with gnd methods
for me it affects high frequency, dynamics and noisefloor similar to the effect we find with improving ps

it is a real headwrecker, so i decided id rather take everything off grid as much as possible

there would be no problem filling a whole section on the forum about gnd topics there's its probably as much art as science
But we recently saw in Tony's how connecting/disconnecting signal grounds can cause issues & although we never tried to measure the voltage potential between the signal grounds, I presume the cause of the issues that we had was momentary current spike on these signal grounds.
tonys issues are related to the the two poorly implemented clk mods on his mobo i never got smart enough to fix it

even though tonys on a tellus building quest id bet a fiver that he has not tried unearthing the monitor yet, thats one direct connection from pc gnd to domestic earth
i doubt any of these type gnd/earth mods will fix tonys issue fully
its just a clk mobo circuit mod issue

we did measure the voltage difference on the day, your memory must be failing as it was your suggestion but found nothing


My sense of this is that each device connects signal & earth together at some point - the best point being at the PS ground but when you connect together two device that have this grounding configuration, you end up with more complex mix of interconnected ground circuits & increase the possibilities for ground currents circulating between signal grounds.
yea its something like that
Ground issues become especially tricky when higher speed signals (Mhz, GHz) are being dealt with so when PC's are part of the chain it's not surprising to see ground issues

I think Naim tried to address these issues with their own equipment which seems to pat dividends but when non-Naim devices are connected, ground issues can easily arise.

Edit: @Panda - I think the problem is the use of the word "ground" - it misdirects - consider it the return pathway for all electrical paths be they data signals or power supply, all circuits have a return current. It gets complicated though - as an example when the signal speed gets faster the ground return on a solid ground plane is not the full ground plane, the return current follows the original pathway of the signal pcb trace on the top layer of the PCB (assuming a two layer pcb). So the return current is densest along a pathway that mirrors the signal pcb trace on the top & spreads out from that line. So if you were to put a probe on this ground plane it would have a higher current along this mirrored pathway & gradually less current as you move off this mirrored trace. As you can see this is different from the view that is common, which is that ground is 0V everywhere that you measure it.

I hope I'm explaining this properly?

BTW, I'm not saying I know how the Tellus works, I'm just saying that ground is not a simple concept & inter-device ground complicates matters. If everywhere you saw the word "ground" you substituted "return current" & then looked into the rules that defined return currents at low Vs high speeds, it would become clearer just how unclear it all is :)
mobo clk mods is way off topic here probably explains the confusion :)
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jkeny
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by jkeny »

Yes, Nige, you are right - it's not just a voltage difference between grounds (that's a ground loop) - I forgot we did check that in Tony's - it's much more complicated than that, as you say.
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tony
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by tony »

panda2rom wrote:And for those interested, Jean Hiraga, the French- Jap gourou of Hifi, made a powerpoint on that subject. I finally digged it :
and you are very lucky it isn"t in french :)
http://www.triodefestival.net/uploads/n ... Hiraga.pdf
Wow what a nice find Panda2rom. Had a quick glance through it. I think the testers listed would blow the budget! He seems pardon the pun really in tune with the subject. Hopefully JK will devout some of his PFM time more effectively trying to decipher the paper!
nige2000 wrote:even though tonys on a tellus building quest id bet a fiver that he has not tried unearthing the monitor yet, thats one direct connection from pc gnd to domestic earth.i doubt any of these type gnd/earth mods will fix tonys issue fully
its just a clk mobo circuit mod issue
Nigel how could you suggest that. I left work the minute I saw your advice and headed straight home to disconnect that rogue earth wire!

I think the 'bad' mobo clock installation is just highlighting what is going on in the back ground generally unseen. It is a eureka moment and I think demonstrates what the Entreq is tackling. No doubt you are right no amount of Tellus stuff will cure the mobo issue but if it is somehow diverting stray grounds or whatever it might bring benefits.

Adam thanks for posting it again about the cable construction. Sometimes good things have to be heard twice before they sink in:( Can you link the sites where you got the bits? Will order same or similar
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by jkeny »

panda2rom wrote:Thank you Jkenny.
This is all very confusing. I sort of understand you say i'm confusing the yellow/green and blue wire.
But i can only think the confusion is part of the plan :)
It's not my plan :) I just think that Entreq are mixing up a number of things for whatever reasons. The point I'm trying to make is to not confuse "ground" with signal return - they are not the same thing but they do connect at some point & in a lot of ways, that's the complexity. Anyway, I'm not going to be able to clear up your confusion in a forum post - we struggle with understanding grounding ourselves - the main thing to understand is that all electrical circuits have a supply & return (it's what constitutes a circuit) - doesn't matter if the supply is power or signal there has to be a return current. The secret to good ground design is to provide the shortest path for the return current so that delicate signal return doesn't mix in with other currents from power supply return.
Last edited by jkeny on Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sima66
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Re: Grounding from China!

Post by sima66 »

nige2000 wrote:Can you post a bunch of pics of the ground/earth wiring to help explain
I assume having ground earth wiring done well has far more impact than having a tellus

Your using pure silver in teflon and cotton as earth/ grounding wire?
Not much to show more than this:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2903&start=100

I thought the same thing as you Nigel, that a good ground must be better that Tellus, that's why I build that separate ground, but wasn't the case.
Or, maybe I missed something with my grounding!

The best results I got when used both , Tellus and the additional ground. The bass wad incredible!

Again, here is the wire that I use:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2903&start=110

The silver wire I bought from Partsconexxion when they had 50% off, for $15 usd per foot.
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